Suspension FAQ
By: LordAccord
From: (http://www.superhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5717&page=1&pp=15)
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I found this on an Accord message board and it applies to our suspensions as well, I may add some of my own text which will be in italics. -MC
What are springs and struts? Why do springs effect my ride? What's the difference between shocks and struts? Why stiffer?
Ok, first you have to understand the difference between the springs and the shocks and their stiffness. Its not the same thing. You don't want a stiff spring and a soft shock, but you can be just fine with a soft spring and a stiff shock.
the principal behind it is that as a spring gets smaller, the rate gets higher. The higher the spring rate, the quicker and harsher the bouncing of the spring. However, the higher the spring rate, the less the spring compresses where it usually would the most on stock springs. This is what causes bad rides and also what gives better performance as in less body roll. Frankly, that's what it gives you.
The principal behind shocks is that the shock compresses a certain amount (of
course) as the spring does, but it really isn't absorbing the "shock"
per say. No matter what shock you have, no matter how stiff or soft it is, whatever,
its not doing the work, the spring is. The shock works to STOP the spring from
the bouncing caused by its compression and decompression. However quick the
shock reacts or rebounds will affect how much of it you feel and how much the
car moves.
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Why shouldn't I put an aftermarket spring on stock shocks?
This is why you don't just throw any damned spring on the stock shocks - you all that want a technical answer - this is it. It takes power to stop a progressive rate spring. Your stock springs are not progressive. They are evenly spaced apart. This means when you hit a bump in the road, the entire spring can compress, there are no dead coils per say. It takes a lot less power to stop a non progressive spring. Think of it like you have a 1 foot long spring with evenly spaced coils, you hold it down, and let it go. Now you do that again with a 8 inch tall spring that has all the coils near the top all close together, even touching. THis means that you have a lot less spring pushing it. BUt principal physics says its going to decompress a hell of a lot quicker, thus faster.
Now, I am a supporter of Eibach, they have awesome quality springs. They are
a world renown company. But despite whatever they say, over and over, and whatever
your friends or people on this board say, you cant make a shorter, progressive
rate spring to work with stock shocks. Its spring rate may be at the limits,
it may feel about like stock, but it aint. under your car your shocks are working
the hardest they have in a while to carry that spring load. Now, whatever the
claims, however long your friends have had them, is absolutely fabulous, go
for it. If they say they are for stockers, then they are. But I have seen prokits
blow stock shocks as fast as race springs. It happens easily. However, they
are the least likely to do it. So if you are gonna cheap out, cheap out the
right way. (I wonder if I could get that published in an oxy moron book...)
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What has more effect on my ride and performance? Springs or Shocks? Both?
Now, addressing the question of which has more of an effect on the ride. Well,
the spring. But the shock has an equal effect WHEN you have the spring. Here's
how that works. You know how I talked about the spring absorbing the shock and
compressing, and the shock matching it to stop the compression? Well, the same
principal applies going into, say, a hard 75 degree turn at 75. What happens?
Your spring compresses. You can certainly tell on stock springs, its less obvious
with aftermarket springs though. But anyhow, in this instance, the quicker that
shock can come out of compression and stop the springs compression, the more
even your car will remain. Thus less body roll, and a still yet centered center
of gravity. This equals control. Good control. Cant just the spring do this?
Yes yes, of course, but even when you put that spring on stock shocks and head
to the twisties, your car will still roll. Not as much, of course, but it will
fluctuate. You lack evenness and clarity and preciseness. Your crux lies in how
well that shock will respond.
--
I heard that I can cut and melt my stock springs...is this a good way to save money and lower my car?
NO!! Since your stock springs aren't highly pro rate, you will be cutting off
your spring rate as you go. You will have a very stiff, often uneven, harsh ride
and you will blow your stock shocks. You also can never revert back and if you
screw one thing up you are basically screwed altogether. Its a money trap.
--
What are the differences between different brands and genres of springs?
Well, generally springs, as they get lower, have a higher and higher spring rate,
which is how close together the spring coils are to each other - but a prorate
spring gathers coils together towards the top and spreads out as they move down.
The lower the spring rate, the softer the spring, the higher the car sits.
Eibach is the choice spring for many people as they claim compatibility with
stock struts, which is not all that far off, however they are still a highly
progressive spring, even though they have a relatively lower spring rate, and
really are still putting a lot of pressure on your struts, its just unrealized
since the springs have a lower spring rate at the bottom.
Neuspeed springs and H&R springs are basically the "next step" up. They offer an alright ride, but they are a lot stiffer than eibach springs and a tad less progressive. They still progress down, except the coils are closer together. These offer higher performance.
There are others, like Suspension Techniques, Intrax, Sprint, BBK, etc. Most
of these springs are as high or high of a spring rate as the Neuspeeds, but some
of them are notorious for sagging or being to stiff. However, The designs can
be nice and great for the right application, like using S/T sport springs which
are a very small drop.
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Ok, enough technical jargon, what about the actual drop height of the springs...what
are some different springs?
Here are some springs and their average drops (it vary's from generation) [I edited this to have 3g lude springs and drop height.]
Eibach Prokits are about a 1.5" drop
Neuspeed / H&R Sports are about a 1.8" drop
Neuspeed / H&R Race are about a 2.25" drop
Tokico springs are about 1" drop
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That's nice, but my parents don't want me to lower my car, is there anything
I can do that they might be OK with?
Sure, you can go with a minor drop spring like S/T Sport or Eibach prokits.
I'm sure you will notice the stance of the springs but your parents may not unless
they just stare at the car or they always have something to compare it to. Most
of all you get rid of a lot of that ugly gap.
--
I don't race, I just want people to see me and like my ride. What should I
do?
The thing is, if you want the look and comfort and are not extremely concerned
about performance, grab up the prokits or sportlines... they are just a softer
spring to put it bluntly.
--
What's up with that guy? Why would you lower a car just for looks? I want
the best performance baby.
In that case, I would say go with Neuspeed springs. There is a noticeable difference
in the performance, but the ride suffers more. The best performance springs
are the high spring rate springs, but your comfort is compromised. If you are
really into it, go for some Race series springs, but I mean if you are really
into it.
--
Ok, you mentioned struts earlier, but what do I need to do about them?
Well, on just about any car, if you replace your springs, your stock struts
aren't going to take it near as well, they cant stop the springs. First off,
the springs are stiffer...no matter what. THe thing about eibachs is they still
they aren't uniform and they aren't stock springs, and they will be stiffer. Eventually
with any spring, especially the very stiff ones like Neuspeed, etc, you are
going to blow out your struts...eventually. some people take weeks some months
some can go a year but it doesn't matter - I've seen people blow shocks with prokits
just as fast as H&R Race, its still money you have to spend later if you
don't do it now.
--
Oh crap, what kind of struts are good? [This section is fairly useless
for 3g ludes as of now, the only performance shocks we can get are Tokico blues]
Some good struts are Koni yellows (the "best" by some) which have
adjustable dampers on them (awesome) to match the rebound with the spring you
are using or the situation you are in. They also have movable perches, which
aren't why you should buy them, but if you had to be in a height adjusting need
situation, then it might be a nice choice. There are also Neuspeed Konis, which
have 5 perches and not just 3. These cost more, but are better geared towards
someone who wants to move the perches when paired with Neuspeed springs...
Before Konis, I had Bilstein HDs which are a non adjustable strut, they are
my favorite and I say they are the best N/A strut, perfect for a budget street
application, though the Koni Red had a bit stiffer ride.
KYB is another good strut maker that you hear great things about, but their
warranty is null and void past a certain drop, I believe 1.5. Still, for a lesser
drop that you want an adjustable strut on, the AGXs remain a definite best value.
TOKICOs, well, I say they blow balls. I have grown to hate them the more I ride
on them.. no offense to anyone with tokicos but they are best used in a low
stress situation, IE with prokits that are on there solely for looks. However,
If you choose tokicos for money, I would highly suggest getting the illuminas
over the blues, so you can stiffen them up.
There are a few other options like the Bec Tec ride height adjustable struts,
but I personally have not learned enough about them or seen enough people with
them for an extended period of time to draw a conclusion.
--
How do you know that if you blown a strut or not? Do you feel any difference?
You will know when your struts blow. Your ride will be come very bouncy as
your shocks no longer do their job. You will be very harsh over bumps... even
with stock springs you will know. Its pretty bad. Basically what is happening
is that your shocks no longer control how much the spring compresses, so when
they are gone, your spring just keeps on bouncing up and down until it stops.
That's it. All I'm saying is that you should know.
--
What do you think is the best combination overall?
Now, as for that, my Ideal functional look and good ride combination is Neuspeed sport and Koni Yellow. You can get your cars ride excellent with Eibach springs, and you can really get your ride down close to the ground with Neuspeed Race and Koni Yellow. H&R springs would be my next choice, and Bilstein struts respectively.
BUT I want to raise and lower my car, what should I do?
IF you think that you might be lowering and raising your car often, like car shows, etc, then something that might suit you better is a coilover setup.
Now moving on to coilovers- that's a different ballpark. You ask if a spring shock combo can match that performance and ride of coilovers.
--
What's a coilover...you mean those uppey downy thingys? [Yep don't have
these for 3g ludes... *cries*]
The definition of a coilover is a spring threaded on to an adjustable shock
body. That's it.
--
Wait a second, I saw some "coilovers" that were just a spring looking
thing, there wasn't a strut.
There are companies that make what are called coilover sleeves. Don't be confused.
These are just the spring on an adjustable perch that sits on a strut ,like
konis,...but the real coilovers are actually combined into all one unit.
--
Oh, those coilover sleeves are a lot cheaper, why not just get those?
There are many complaints and problems with the coilover sleeves, Harsh ride,
slipping threads, blown shocks, etc, but THey do serve a purpose and many people
that don't care about the actual ride but want an adjustable perch for the looks
will get them. I don't recommend them.
--
What brand of coilover sleeves are the best?
Some popular ones are Skunk 2s, Weapon R, and Ground Control. Most others are
generic and made from the same place and have different names on them. Its really
up to you, but for the best ride and compatibility, the above listed is the
better choice. Best performance being Skunks, best quality and ride being Ground
control.
--
Will I need struts with coilover sleeves?
Most definitely, these are some of the stiffest springs you are going to come
by when lowering your car. If there is a time when you need struts, this is
it. THis is also a good reason why many people go to a full coilover setup instead
of sleeves and shocks, because the cost becomes almost equal and you can get
so much more out of the full setup.
--
Well, if I have that sleeve for 300 bucks and shocks for 300 bucks, why would
I want TRUE coilovers?
True coilovers are the s--t. Really. Since height is adjustable and sometimes
the dampers are adjustable, and the spring and shock body are tuned very well
to each other, these make for a very nice comfortable ride that performs much
better than most strut / shock / coilover sleeve combos. However, you have to
pay a price, usually a High one, for the all out compression/rebound/height
adjustable coilovers. But when it comes to just height adjustable but well matched
setups, like Apexi WS, the price you pay is only 100 or 200 more than what you
would for coilover sleeves and shocks. Ask anyone with that kind of a setup,
and they will tell you, as I do, its worth the money to go all out.
--
What are some good Full coilovers?
This is a mod I will more than likely make in the future. Some popular ones are Tien, H&R, Koni, Neuspeed, Tanabe, and Apexi.
--
You talk Coilovers up to be so good, so could a spring or coilover sleeve
/ shock combo match the performance or ride of a true coilover?
Well, theoretically, by what I'm saying, yes. But there is a difference between the construction of a coilover and a spring and a shock. When you have a coilover that is tailored together, never to leave one piece, you gain a rigid ness in design for the suspension movement. It changes. The ride is smoother because of how well matched the rebound is, but the performance is at its peak as well because of how matched the compression is. IF the shock doesn't have to work as hard to rebound, your performance increases solely with its ability. With say, sportlines and konis, your compression is set. You can match the rebound, but that may not be your peak performance. That may actually be with a stiffer rebound. Take for instance my konis and neuspeeds. My peak ride comfort is at a 180 degree turn. But if I'm taking hard turns, I will set it at 360. What I lack is the fine tuning. Its matched, but not tuned. And then you have another issue to throw in. Height and damper adjustable coilovers... hehe. Now you are talking. Taking an already tuned pair and tuning it even more based on your height adjustment. Its a setup that costs money for good reason. It can be almost flawless. Almost perfect.
--
So coilovers really are the best?
You are right in your thinking, coilovers are the ultimate in ride and performance,
but they aren't for everyone. If one is out to spend a little and get as much
as possible, a spring shock combo has a LOT to offer. And i mean a LOT. If you
aren't going to be machine setting your stiffness to .002 with a spring rate dialed
to 250lbs to match with blabla blah blah... you know, not many will go this
far...not racing far, not perfect suspension far. This is WHY I push that a
spring shock combo will get the job done, as do most of the other suspension
"experts" on the various boards around town....so you gotta think
about it before you jump into it. UNderstand it. And you will figure out what
is right for you.
--
LETS REVIEW:
The suspension setups-
Cut springs-
Pros: dropped look
Cons: very bouncy and rough ride, blown shocks quickly, no height or damper
adjust, uneven spring rates
Just springs-
Pros: dropped look, good performance
Cons: rougher, bouncier ride, blown shocks quickly, no major height or damper
adjustability
Springs and Shocks-
Pros: great ride, best performance, dropped look, no maintenance
Cons: sometimes bumpier ride in places, no major height adjustability
Just coilover sleeves-
Pros: adjustable dropped look, OK performance
Cons: thread slip, blown shocks quickly, very harsh ride, no damper adjustability
Coilover sleeves and Shocks-
Pros: adjustable dropped look, better performance, semi smooth ride
Cons: thread slip, no damper adjustability
True Coilovers-
Pros: adjustable dropped look, great performance, damper adjustability, springs
threaded directly on shock
Cons: some w/o damper adjustability
Others (airbags and dubs)
Pros: instant adjustability, smooth ride
Cons: for show, performance lacks, constant maintenance
------------------------------------
Ok LoRdAccord, I know what I really want, but how much is it going to cost??
here is a good breakdown of approximate prices
Springs: $130-230
Sleeves: $250-400
Shocks: $250-500
Coilovers: $800-1500+
--
Wow, that's pretty salty for those coilovers.
Yes, but add up a spring and shock or a sleeve and shocks...Unless you are
cheaping out and only buying springs, then it almost gets up to the price of
coilovers. However, if you can save money and you don't need coilovers, then
don't get them!
--
Well, why cant I cheap out and just buy springs, I can replace my shocks
when I get the money.
You can, go for it, but
LABOR is usually1 $100-300 depending on setup- this pricing usually is true
whether you do Just springs/sleeves, or springs and shocks, or just shocks.
This is another reason why you can save money doing it now, enough that you
could just go for those coilovers. Puts things in perspective.
Plus you ALWAYS run the risk of being out that money if your stock units blow.
Better safe than sorry is the best way to play it. Instead of hurting your pocket
and your car unexpectedly, do it correctly the first time.
--
You keep talking about all these brands and all of these thing, where do
I get them????
well, good question. Some popular sites online to buy from are
http://www.carparts.com/
http://www.modacar.com/
http://www.groupbuycenter.com/
http://www.ebaymotors.com/
http://www.shox.com/
http://www.tirerack.com/
http://www.discounttiredirect.com/
http://www.nopi.com/
http://www.landspeedracing.com/
http://www.summitracing.com/
http://www.ardperformance.com/
http://www.lightningmotorsports.com/
That should be enough to get you started, always check sites and magazines as well as local stores when trying to find a deal.